Prof. George Katsiaficas, author of the books on “Asia’s Unknown Uprisings”
Article 2: With regards to the protest by the workers in Cambodia, do you think the reason is only because the people were hungry or did they have other reasons to protest?
George: Not only in Asia but in most countries, when people are being starved, there will often be reactions that are immediate. And when situations are very desperate the people will react. But in such a situation it is very difficult for people to formulate what kind of society they want to live in. Their immediate concern is feeding their families.
In Cambodia, in the last decades there has been a great change for the better. From the days of American bombing, and of the Khmer Rouge up until today, Cambodia has gradually seen improvements in opportunities available to people.
So I think as desperate as the situation is for workers, who are earning what is not enough, the overall situation in Cambodia is one on which people gain hope. They see in countries around them that are great deal more prosperous, and that more security as possible.
In my experience of studying other Asian countries, you can see that once protests start they (the issues their represents) tend to build upon each other. So even if they start over wage demands, very soon when people realize that they are able to win control over streets, to organize into trade unions or demand for a wage increase. They begin to see that they can in fact have more than what they have now.
Cambodia’s situation with people being forced off the land, few families enriching themselves while many go hungry, is one, in which we can, I think expect, more and more protests on the streets as time goes on.
Article 2: Why do people protest even though they could get hurt and they know their regime is authoritarian, like in Cambodia, Hun Sen has been in power for decades?
George: You answered your question in some ways yourself. Hun Sen has been in power for years. The people realize that the terror of the Khmer Rouge days has passed. So there is some possibility of creating change within the present system itself no matter how limited the window of opportunity may be. The very stability of the Hun Sen regime gives the idea that the government should be more responsive to the people’s needs.
The Hun Sen regime is not a government that is completely blind to the needs of its people because his regime has been there for decades now. In that context, the people feel that the pattern of distribution of wealth should have included the workers, the people who have given so much effort of their time to these companies, but receive so little in return.
Article 2: So, it means that this is not entirely a demand from a hungry people, but a demand for a more democratic space?
George: Yes, I think so. Going into the streets, even though four people died and dozens were wounded or injured, the fact that the people dared to go on streets shows that there is a belief that the system will respond to make changes.
And it is all over in the world today. People realized that they can make change. I think there are examples we have seen recently. For instance, in Ukraine, their President who refused to leave power ultimately did leave power because of these protests.
In Cambodia, that (workers protest and the crackdown) was covered. People see that. The people realize that the street is not part of it (the regime). The people can assert power.
Article 2: Even after the protest, the worker’s demands were not met fully. So, in countries like Cambodia protests may not bring immediate results?
George: That is right. And the response of the workers today does not mean it was their final response. But they know that the (regime) was put on notice, and that the workers are unhappy. The resulting deaths and injuries were because they are so unhappy, so the companies must take action. I think there is no other option for them (companies and regime but to meet the workers demands) because they realize that their economy depends on people going to work every day.
The people are unhappy, so unhappy that they went on the streets even though there were already deaths and injured people on the streets. The event does say something that the government should change.
Article 2: Most of the labour leaders and activists are in their late 30s. Is there any significance in the demographic that contributes to the increasing protests?
George: Early 30s means they were born after the Khmer Rouge regime. So after the Khmer Rouge was deposed, there was a whole new system of thinking in Cambodia. The terror of the war years was removed. Certainly with the younger generations they thought it’s time for Cambodians to be able to live just like other people in other countries. People are aware that there is a great deal of prosperity in the world. They should have a fair share of it.
Absolutely, this demographic change, the movement of the people from countryside into urban areas is such that the people are no longer isolated from one another. In the city, there are anonymous connections. The people no longer feel that their neighbours are reporting to the communist, coming and going, as it was in the past.
So there is more freedom of movement. There are more job opportunities. Urban life gives more opportunities to people to express their perspectives: to come into contact with different kinds of people, and of different kinds of thinking. That in itself is a demographic transition and the urbanization of the country is a contributing factor, I think; and the change of expectations.
Article 2: I’ve heard stories about protesters taking videos of the protests, and taking the videos to their village to show them to their elders and people in their village. I’m told people in the village were encouraged, amazed and in disbelief.
George: Absolutely, modern technology, social media and the fact the people can now take videos on their cell phone increases the capacity of people to have their experiences shared, rather than the information being kept isolated. So when experiences are shared, people realize that change could happen very quickly.
